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Post by Stiopa on May 5, 2021 11:38:01 GMT
Some more factors to consider:
People are approaching Poseidon's political and social powder keg from a variety of attitudes, from wide-eyed idealism bordering on naivety (or condescending), to cutthroat cynicism, of the "grab all you can and fuck the other guy" variety, and these attitudes can show up in every faction, instead of playing into the more prevalent tropes ("good natives", "corrupt incorporates", "well-intentioned but stumbling GEO", etc.) Benevolent GenDiver managers and executives, ruthless Native pirates, corrupt GEO officials, activists who see everything through the lens of their own - often incorrect - preconceptions, colonists who aren't here to cash in on the Long John rush, but play for some other endgame - some of it is mentioned in passing, but doesn't get much in a way of characterization. All of this can change the dynamics mentioned in this thread in a number of ways, as the individuals I've mentioned create unusual interactions, and react in unexpected ways.
Organized independents. Most of the time independent groups are portrayed as created on the Poseidon itself, but there must've been multiple endeavours when people organized together on Earth, and journeyed to Poseidon with a specific goal in mind. Nationbuilding or exploiting new world's tensions to influence the political situation in the Solar System are first two that immediately come to mind. (For those familiar with David Weber's Honorverse - look at how Manticore was settled for an example of a group bent on nationbuilding.) Such groups might be more inclined to act more like Incorporates - less individualistic, more organized and focused, inclined to treating other groups as means to an end.
Old World Order remnants, particularly those still feeling loyal to old national identities. History is powerful, so are truths and myths built on it, and even after almost a century you'll find people attached to old national and ethnic divisions. Many of our current political conflicts and moves have their roots stretching back a century or two. Groups of colonists can be expected to bring the old tensions with them, especially since it can be a familiar base to ground oneself in in the face of uncertainity, alienation, or personal hardships and failures common in the stories of newcomers, and another way to build hierarchies. This is in practice very similar to already mentioned religion.
Factional friction between different fractions within the same groups. Pro- and anticolonial natives, Factions within GEO prioritizing natives or incorporate interests, different factions within criminal or terrorist organizations, colonists with radically different ideas about desired political situation on Poseidon (the latter can be nicely shaped after dynamic in XVIII-century America). I've mentioned some time ago that in my worldbuilding NRM and NGC are two different groups struggling for control over Zion Islands; such conflict would be both influenced and in turn influence further social interactions and frictions.
Law enforcement issues. In Poseidon model, which is a frontier, very decentralized one, the composition and methods employed by the officers will be shaped by the structure of the society they police. The more complex social enviroment, the more forces will be at work, creating frictions between the officers themselves and between them and civilians. GEO's influence will mostly act as a stabilizer, but this influence will wane the further away we get from the administrative centers. Places with bigger and more diverse population will of course generate more conflict, with law enforcement approach being very varied. Another thing that matters is the background of the officers. Some will go through the academy, but many will be military veterans, former incorporate security, criminals changing sides, Native Patrol - this will create a patchwork of different outlooks, methods, philosophies of policing, issues stemming from racism and resentment. Some colinists demanding that "the patrols in their borough to be less... native, if you know what I mean", military vets bringing with them military methods and state of mind, idealists struggling against real and perceived corruption - this is a Long John mine of plot hooks.
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Post by Pawel on May 5, 2021 12:05:50 GMT
Some more factors to consider: People are approaching Poseidon's political and social powder keg from a variety of attitudes, from wide-eyed idealism bordering on naivety (or condescending), to cutthroat cynicism, of the "grab all you can and fuck the other guy" variety, and these attitudes can show up in every faction, instead of playing into the more prevalent tropes ("good natives", "corrupt incorporates", "well-intentioned but stumbling GEO", etc.) Benevolent GenDiver managers and executives, ruthless Native pirates, corrupt GEO officials, activists who see everything through the lens of their own - often incorrect - preconceptions, colonists who aren't here to cash in on the Long John rush, but play for some other endgame - some of it is mentioned in passing, but doesn't get much in a way of characterization. All of this can change the dynamics mentioned in this thread in a number of ways, as the individuals I've mentioned create unusual interactions, and react in unexpected ways. Organized independents. Most of the time independent groups are portrayed as created on the Poseidon itself, but there must've been multiple endeavours when people organized together on Earth, and journeyed to Poseidon with a specific goal in mind. Nationbuilding or exploiting new world's tensions to influence the political situation in the Solar System are first two that immediately come to mind. (For those familiar with David Weber's Honorverse - look at how Manticore was settled for an example of a group bent on nationbuilding.) Such groups might be more inclined to act more like Incorporates - less individualistic, more organized and focused, inclined to treating other groups as means to an end. Old World Order remnants, particularly those still feeling loyal to old national identities. History is powerful, so are truths and myths built on it, and even after almost a century you'll find people attached to old national and ethnic divisions. Many of our current political conflicts and moves have their roots stretching back a century or two. Groups of colonists can be expected to bring the old tensions with them, especially since it can be a familiar base to ground oneself in in the face of uncertainity, alienation, or personal hardships and failures common in the stories of newcomers, and another way to build hierarchies. This is in practice very similar to already mentioned religion. Factional friction between different fractions within the same groups. Pro- and anticolonial natives, Factions within GEO prioritizing natives or incorporate interests, different factions within criminal or terrorist organizations, colonists with radically different ideas about desired political situation on Poseidon (the latter can be nicely shaped after dynamic in XVIII-century America). I've mentioned some time ago that in my worldbuilding NRM and NGC are two different groups struggling for control over Zion Islands; such conflict would be both influenced and in turn influence further social interactions and frictions. Law enforcement issues. In Poseidon model, which is a frontier, very decentralized one, the composition and methods employed by the officers will be shaped by the structure of the society they police. The more complex social enviroment, the more forces will be at work, creating frictions between the officers themselves and between them and civilians. GEO's influence will mostly act as a stabilizer, but this influence will wane the further away we get from the administrative centers. Places with bigger and more diverse population will of course generate more conflict, with law enforcement approach being very varied. Another thing that matters is the background of the officers. Some will go through the academy, but many will be military veterans, former incorporate security, criminals changing sides, Native Patrol - this will create a patchwork of different outlooks, methods, philosophies of policing, issues stemming from racism and resentment. Some colinists demanding that "the patrols in their borough to be less... native, if you know what I mean", military vets bringing with them military methods and state of mind, idealists struggling against real and perceived corruption - this is a Long John mine of plot hooks. Awesome input, thank you very much!! Avoiding stereotypes, or at least responsibly limiting their use, is definitely an important part of the GM's job. And I'm now checking out Honorverse, as it's been a while since I read good military scifi and your mention of nationbuilding grabbed my curiosity.
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Post by Stiopa on May 5, 2021 13:04:56 GMT
Awesome input, thank you very much!! Avoiding stereotypes, or at least responsibly limiting their use, is definitely an important part of the GM's job. And I'm now checking out Honorverse, as it's been a while since I read good military scifi and your mention of nationbuilding grabbed my curiosity. While David Weber's political views are visible in this regard, most of the time he takes care not to create strawman factions and politicians. That's actually a major trope of his world, there are real people on each side of any conflict, and very few of them are complete monsters. Most are people who have very valid reasons to do what they do, but believe that ends justify the means, put honor before reason, act out of loyalty, get manipulated (oooooh boy)... Most of the evil in Honorverse is done not out of malice, but out of sheer stupidity. Which is good, as I believe I believe the stories in which the circumstances force good people to fight and kill each other, or where the villain has a very valid point, to have the greatest impact on readers, or, in case of rpg, players. Another thing that shows up in Honorverse is the trope called "Planet of Hats": tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHatsGiven that some planets in the 'verse were settled by a very specific group of colonists - Polish, Czech, Irish, to name a few - the cultures of their worlds tend to reflect their roots. It can come off as comical - I don't believe naming conventions and social structures would remain so intact after few hundred years - but in Poseidon's case, with a less than a century passing, it's pretty plausible.
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Post by Pawel on May 5, 2021 13:26:36 GMT
Awesome input, thank you very much!! Avoiding stereotypes, or at least responsibly limiting their use, is definitely an important part of the GM's job. And I'm now checking out Honorverse, as it's been a while since I read good military scifi and your mention of nationbuilding grabbed my curiosity. While David Weber's political views are visible in this regard, most of the time he takes care not to create strawman factions and politicians. That's actually a major trope of his world, there are real people on each side of any conflict, and very few of them are complete monsters. Most are people who have very valid reasons to do what they do, but believe that ends justify the means, put honor before reason, act out of loyalty, get manipulated (oooooh boy)... Most of the evil in Honorverse is done not out of malice, but out of sheer stupidity. Which is good, as I believe I believe the stories in which the circumstances force good people to fight and kill each other, or where the villain has a very valid point, to have the greatest impact on readers, or, in case of rpg, players. Another thing that shows up in Honorverse is the trope called "Planet of Hats": tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHatsGiven that some planets in the 'verse were settled by a very specific group of colonists - Polish, Czech, Irish, to name a few - the cultures of their worlds tend to reflect their roots. It can come off as comical - I don't believe naming conventions and social structures would remain so intact after few hundred years - but in Poseidon's case, with a less than a century passing, it's pretty plausible. Haha, I guess Planet of Hats is quite a pervasive trope, which is of course fine when handled with care. Too much or too little of it could easily become bad worldbuilding. On Poseidon it's sort of easier than on many older scifi colony worlds, because vast majority of population are fresh immigrants. It's also a planet of islands, literally, so given time to develop/merge/warp newcomer cultures, all those scattered settlements will likely develop slightly differently to what we know from our overpopulated world full of various kinds of borders. Hmm, which also means that quite a lot of social issues will be localized, though of course not all. I wonder which of all these tensions we've been listing in this thread (this is awesome brainstorming, you guys!!) could become universal enough to spawn noteworthy social movements. Apart from the obvious anticolonial sentiments and environmental protection already well established in the books, of course.
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Post by Stiopa on May 5, 2021 15:18:39 GMT
Hmm, which also means that quite a lot of social issues will be localized, though of course not all. I wonder which of all these tensions we've been listing in this thread (this is awesome brainstorming, you guys!!) could become universal enough to spawn noteworthy social movements. Apart from the obvious anticolonial sentiments and environmental protection already well established in the books, of course. One obvious candidate would be a major independence movement. We could find its enthusiasts in every major group; Natives, wanting to protect their territories and way of life. New colonists of every affiliation, not wanting their lives to be influenced by decisions made by people in a different star system (it was mentioned in this thread already, in the incorporate context. No taxation without representation, right?). Incorporate executives, seeing the opportunity to carve their own fiefdoms after shaking off the Board of Directors' control. GEO officials believing the organization to be overstepping its bounds, or wishing for greater democratization of the whole system. Now add to this the whole web of open and covert influence, various players manipulating others behind the scenes (is this movement genuine, or are its leaders being manipulated or on the take of outside forces?), individuals shaking things up for personal reasons...
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Post by Pawel on May 5, 2021 15:32:15 GMT
Hmm, which also means that quite a lot of social issues will be localized, though of course not all. I wonder which of all these tensions we've been listing in this thread (this is awesome brainstorming, you guys!!) could become universal enough to spawn noteworthy social movements. Apart from the obvious anticolonial sentiments and environmental protection already well established in the books, of course. One obvious candidate would be a major independence movement. We could find its enthusiasts in every major group; Natives, wanting to protect their territories and way of life. New colonists of every affiliation, not wanting their lives to be influenced by decisions made by people in a different star system (it was mentioned in this thread already, in the incorporate context. No taxation without representation, right?). Incorporate executives, seeing the opportunity to carve their own fiefdoms after shaking off the Board of Directors' control. GEO officials believing the organization to be overstepping its bounds, or wishing for greater democratization of the whole system. Now add to this the whole web of open and covert influence, various players manipulating others behind the scenes (is this movement genuine, or are its leaders being manipulated or on the take of outside forces?), individuals shaking things up for personal reasons... Oh yeah, definitely, but I feel the topic of independence on Poseidon is very multifaceted, so although it's a major aspect of all colonists' lives, I'm not sure if it would breed an actual Archipelago-spanning social movement. Though I suppose anti-GEO sentiments can be found in all factions, big and small, whether they're Incorps, natives, independent newcomers, etc. So perhaps this could be one of those bigger movements, maybe fuelled by the bigger players behind the scenes (old UN powerhouses want to get rid of their GEO shackles). I think the Recontact edition might bring some more details or a sharper thematic focus to GEO's political standing among its upstart rivals and old enemies.
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Post by neil on May 5, 2021 15:54:05 GMT
Organized independents. Most of the time independent groups are portrayed as created on the Poseidon itself, but there must've been multiple endeavours when people organized together on Earth, and journeyed to Poseidon with a specific goal in mind. Nationbuilding or exploiting new world's tensions to influence the political situation in the Solar System are first two that immediately come to mind. (For those familiar with David Weber's Honorverse - look at how Manticore was settled for an example of a group bent on nationbuilding.) Such groups might be more inclined to act more like Incorporates - less individualistic, more organized and focused, inclined to treating other groups as means to an end. I can easily see groups of people, organised around some kind of shared identity, coming to Poseidon for a new life and/or to escape a bad life on Earth. That identity could be national, religious, or some other shared culture. As you say, the people in those groups will have different degrees of zealotry, idealism, and pragmatism; the groups may well partially fade away once on Poseidon, or may attract new members. Poseidon is different from historical models. The settlement isn't colonialism because there aren't people already living on Poseidon (there are a few Natives, but there's plenty of space where no-one lives). That'll get complicated when people find out about nereids and xenosilicate, but that's for the future. Settlement also isn't like events such as the Klondike gold rush, as Poseidon is actually a nice place to live! (Perhaps the settlement of California, complete with it's own gold rush, is a good model for the settlement of Poseidon.) Another thing about immigration and settlement, especially in the "now" of Blue Planet, is how much transport capacity there is from Earth. There can't be that many torch ships, and those that are around are likely to be full of lucrative Long John prospectors, rather than sensible groups looking to settle. (Anecdote: many transport ships during the gold rush were abandoned in San Francisco because the crews deserted and joined the gold rush. How many abandoned torch ships are in orbit around Poseidon?) Law enforcement issues. In Poseidon model, which is a frontier, very decentralized one, the composition and methods employed by the officers will be shaped by the structure of the society they police. The more complex social enviroment, the more forces will be at work, creating frictions between the officers themselves and between them and civilians. GEO's influence will mostly act as a stabilizer, but this influence will wane the further away we get from the administrative centers. Places with bigger and more diverse population will of course generate more conflict, with law enforcement approach being very varied. Another thing that matters is the background of the officers. Some will go through the academy, but many will be military veterans, former incorporate security, criminals changing sides, Native Patrol - this will create a patchwork of different outlooks, methods, philosophies of policing, issues stemming from racism and resentment. Some colinists demanding that "the patrols in their borough to be less... native, if you know what I mean", military vets bringing with them military methods and state of mind, idealists struggling against real and perceived corruption - this is a Long John mine of plot hooks. I think the key element in thinking about law enforcement is that Poseidon has a very low population (two million), a quarter of it is in one town, and another quarter is concentrated in a handful of mainly Incorp settlements. Everyone else lives scattered across Pacifica in towns of a few thousand each. Outside those few large settlements, what formal law enforcement is there? I think almost none. If there is crime, it's probably met with internal, informal punishment, or the criminal is held until someone from a Patrol, or a GEO Marshal, turns up and deals with them. Everything you say about law enforcement is true in say, Haven (plus there's the police in the Ballard Arcology, who may well assert independence from the GEO); I'm not sure it's true elsewhere. But as a lot of social change will start in Haven, it's worth bearing in mind. Again, for real-world models. I'm a Brit, and I find the multiplicity of police types and jurisdictions bewildering. There seem to be different police forces for towns and country, for different parts of the country, for the country as a whole, different national agencies have their own police forces... it's a mess. The UK has essentially one police force that does everything for everyone. Nominally, there are different forces for different parts of country, but they're much more similar than different. Just pointing that out to say that the USA's patchwork model isn't the only one.
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Post by Pawel on May 5, 2021 16:11:52 GMT
Another thing about immigration and settlement, especially in the "now" of Blue Planet, is how much transport capacity there is from Earth. There can't be that many torch ships, and those that are around are likely to be full of lucrative Long John prospectors, rather than sensible groups looking to settle. (Anecdote: many transport ships during the gold rush were abandoned in San Francisco because the crews deserted and joined the gold rush. How many abandoned torch ships are in orbit around Poseidon?) Haha, I don't imagine it's easy to jump ship when you're docked at an orbital station, in comparison to when hulls were wooden and creaky. And torchship crews are likely some of the best paid individuals in both solar systems. Having said that, I had no idea this was happening during the Gold Rush. Crazy!! I should read up a bit more about this, to ensure the Longjohn rush in my campaigns isn't too toned down.
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Post by doublea on May 5, 2021 16:45:19 GMT
I bet very few; Resources are crazy scarce on Poseidon still, as manufacturing and infrastructure is not up to Earth level yet, so I bet if anyone left a ship even vaguely unattended in orbit it'd be skeletonized like a cow in a piranha-infested river. Like most frontier areas I bet the whole system is rife with piracy as it is! I bet there are abandoned enterprises all over the planet though; Ghost towns on islands, wrecks on the ocean floor, collapsed mines full of hardware, that kind of thing. As a side-note on the whole Planet of Hats commentary, I remember a quote but can't recall the credit for it. It went something like "Good villains don't believe they are evil. Good villains believe they are right." Be it individuals or entire organizations, I feel the real meat in storytelling is always to flesh them out fully, and give them shades of grey. Not to say an incorporate can't be just plain and simple evil, but it's interesting if you have parts of the organization or individuals within it who are not. I always did consider the GEO to be 'the good guys' though I suppose it's likely more fun with at least a sprinkle of corruption in the mix.
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Post by neil on May 5, 2021 18:05:47 GMT
Haha, I don't imagine it's easy to jump ship when you're docked at an orbital station, in comparison to when hulls were wooden and creaky. And torchship crews are likely some of the best paid individuals in both solar systems. Having said that, I had no idea this was happening during the Gold Rush. Crazy!! I should read up a bit more about this, to ensure the Longjohn rush in my campaigns isn't too toned down. Plus, many of the torchship crew will be Spacer genies, so eloping to Poseidon will be less attractive. But it's too good a story opportunity to say it's never happened! As for abandoned ships being reused, they were in the California gold rush. The ships were sunk in San Francisco harbour and formed the basis of the reclaimed land that is now the Mission and Financial districts.
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Post by Pawel on May 5, 2021 18:33:43 GMT
Haha, I don't imagine it's easy to jump ship when you're docked at an orbital station, in comparison to when hulls were wooden and creaky. And torchship crews are likely some of the best paid individuals in both solar systems. Having said that, I had no idea this was happening during the Gold Rush. Crazy!! I should read up a bit more about this, to ensure the Longjohn rush in my campaigns isn't too toned down. Plus, many of the torchship crew will be Spacer genies, so eloping to Poseidon will be less attractive. But it's too good a story opportunity to say it's never happened! As for abandoned ships being reused, they were in the California gold rush. The ships were sunk in San Francisco harbour and formed the basis of the reclaimed land that is now the Mission and Financial districts. Ohhhh, this is one beautiful wee story hook if I've ever seen one!! <3 And wow, so is the California gold rush - perhaps not in terms of ships getting abandoned, by various pre-planned projects, oh yeah!
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Post by neil on May 6, 2021 17:59:20 GMT
Picking up Stiopa's idea of "factions within groups", what factions and divisions are there within the groups?
And to caveat: this is all just me throwing out ideas. Please, come up with better suggestions!
Natives. The two extremes here are known. Those who say "The Abandonment is over!" and those who say "The Despoilers have arrived."
Settlers. There will be some arriving with all the high-tech mod-cons (Incorp or national sponsored?), some small groups that have scraped together the bare minimum, and a small number of "neo-Natives" that have probably biomodded themselves into aquaforms and are all about going back to nature, like the Natives had to. This last group are probably full of "Natives are noble savages" delusions. There's also an attitude range, from "we're an extension of Earth groups" to "new world, new rules" to "new world, who needs the old world at all?"
Prospectors. Again, these will vary by resource and backing (Incorp citizens, Incorp contracted/indentured, the ones who sold everything for the chance to strike it rich, the ones where the entire family/group/town sold everything so this prospecting crew must succeed else loved ones on Earth will starve) and attitude to environment (smash-and-grab to sustainable).
What do we know about different communities on the World of Hurt? Who's being oppressed and so would want to emigrate to escape that?
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Post by Pawel on May 6, 2021 20:28:33 GMT
Oh yeah, just about any group of people can probably be stretched along a number of different spectrums and approach to Recontact is definitely one of the most important factors to consider for the native community. But even with ecoterrorist elements among them, differences between various native factions probably won't be as vast and as volatile as those between newcomers. Even though geographically isolated from each other, I like to think that quite a lot of native groups relied on each other over all those decades of Abandonment. And they had zero reasons to compete over anything. So yeah, some of them may have very different views on Recontact now, but in the end their overarching identity is still: we're natives, newcomers are from another world. I suppose for most natives stuff that doesn't fit their daily reality is simply best ignored. They're a holistic bunch. But newcomers, heeeey, you get three different minds in two of those! What unites all of them? I'm thinking - common enemy. GEO! Of course plenty of newcomers are loyal and/or grateful to GEO. I'd be too! But still, there must be so many different reasons to hate GEO and unite all those scattered and oh so different factions into potentially quite a destabilising movement, even if not homogenous in the slightest. Let's see if we can list some grievances of the more angry peeps out there. - Freedom! Independence! Nationalism! That umbrella over your head doesn't care about you. Or worse, it favours some and neglects others. That surely means it neglects you.
- Legally speaking, GEO shouldn't even exist anymore, should it? It's mission is over. So it's a tyrant, usurping power for the sake of power. What's more important, it has absolutely no claim on Poseidon. Project Athena was a UN endeavour.
- What's with all that environmentalism on Poseidon? It's gonna be centuries before humans so much as dent the biosphere of the waterworld, surely. Excessive worry about something so trivial (urgh, I feel so dirty even just typing this) needlessly hinders industry™ and progress™!
- What's the reason behind Longjohn being so expensive on Earth, so exclusive, accessible only if you're super rich? GEO, of course. They don't let hard working folks go about their daily business and, as a result, they only perpetuate economic and even genetic disparities between the haves and the havenots on Earth and beyond. More Longjohn available for the masses definitely means more equality.
- Life on Poseidon is fairly transparent. You barter. You shake hands/fins with people that either smile or shrug at you. Communities are small. GEO is a moloch with so many heads. All those commissions, all the separate agencies. Everything gets drowned in bureaucracy. It's such a relic of a different world. It's simply not qualified to run the colony world.
- All those Incorp wars? GEO's doing. Whole countries on their knees and a handful of uber-capitalist artificial nations eat real caviar from golden plates? Blame GEO. All that Free Zone madness? GEO's fault. GEO allowed - so also supervised - the creation of the Incorps and it keeps them alive to keep itself alive. And the crazy corporate scrip economy is its weapon, designed to keep the world in check.
Uuugh, I need to take a shower now. What else would you hate GEO for??
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Post by forgottenlore on May 7, 2021 0:48:13 GMT
What if there are many, different, independence movements, and some bad actors are trying to organize and unify them for nefarious purpose. I could see a good campaign developing out of discovering this subversion of the movements and stopping the bad actors, but then the core issues still remain.
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Post by Pawel on May 7, 2021 7:20:16 GMT
What if there are many, different, independence movements, and some bad actors are trying to organize and unify them for nefarious purpose. I could see a good campaign developing out of discovering this subversion of the movements and stopping the bad actors, but then the core issues still remain. Oh yeah, sure thing - I'd just change that nefarious purpose to "selfish" or even "thinks that's for the best". Every good campaign needs a great villain, I reckon - and politicians can be absolutely scary BBEGs, especially on a world where there's plenty of water (and fast fungus) to dispose dead bodies in. Then again, one of the many super cool things about Blue Planet is that on Poseidon no-one is untouchable. Small population and savage ecology means even the ultra-rich and the political colossi can't just sit on their thrones assured they're safe.
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